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errant_janeHere's the drabble I did at work today:
The day Castiel meets Dean, he feels doubt for the first time. It's Dean's despair at the thought that God might actually exist that cuts through him. For most people, it is comfort. For Dean, it throws everything he knows into question, that God would let people suffer so, that God would want Dean out of hell.
His doubt triggers Castiel's, sharp and unexpected.
But it's not Dean's doubt that breaks him. After that, he fortified himself against it. It is the moment he realizes Dean trusted him. Castiel never had any hope of defending himself against Dean Winchester's faith.
***
Which led to my musings about why I want to, but can't quite hop fully onboard the Dean/Castiel ship. (Which is not to say I'm opposed to it. I fully acknowledge that these are my own issues and I'm certainly not trying to derail anyone else's enjoyment of the ship. Cool?)
It's mired in several layers of crazy, JSYK. Setting aside the whole porn issue, I am an OTPer at heart in that way that I love epic creepy obsessive pairings (See: Clark/Lex). And the thing is, Dean/Castiel is epic enough, but it seems fairly one-sided on Castiel's part. Rather, I have a much clearer picture of how Castiel feels about Dean than how Dean feels about Castiel. Dean's feelings on that remain rather murky in my head. Because Dean is still wholly devoted to Sam. Which brings me back to my OTP issues, because in order to ship them, I want Dean's feelings to be on (or at least near) the same level and I just don't think they are.
Not yet, anyway, and I will be interested to see the fallout of everything that went down in Lucifer Rising. I don't think at the point where we left Dean that he would know the first thing to do with the devotion of which Castiel is capable. Castiel is built for faith and following and I don't know that Dean has considered the ramifications of that beyond, "How can I use this to help Sam?" Which makes Dean sound usery. I don't necessarily mean it like that.
Castiel falls into an interesting slot in Dean's world. He is someone Dean doesn't need to protect, nor necessarily respect. In a weird way, Dean interacts with Castiel as something of an equal (sort of a, "Shh, Sam, the grown-ups are talking now and here's what we've decided"). The hubris of this is somewhat amusing, all things considered. Dean not only questions Castiel, but in some cases acts as though Castiel is accountable to him. He doesn't quite forget that Castiel might have his own agenda, but at the same time, he truly believes that Castiel is on his side. It's a weird sort of faith Dean has in Castiel, but it is, or has been to this point, based around keeping Sam safe.
Castiel is the brother-in-arms that Dean wants Sam to be (but often prevents Sam from being). WRT Sam, it is something akin to a more fucked-up version of Buffy re: Dawn in The Gift:
Dean is like that, but without the benefit of any semblance of the support system Buffy had. Castiel is Dean's first taste of having a Scooby. He doesn't know what to do with that, yet. Doesn't know how to reconcile what Castiel is and what he represents with the rest of his world. But Castiel has the potential to be something Dean has never had before, if Dean can get over himself enough to realize it. Dean has some issues.
I think I have hit rambling now, so I'll wrap it up.
In conclusion: I think Castiel is in love with Dean in an epic way. I reserve judgment on where Dean stands until we see how some of the stuff in S5 plays out (I AM SPOILER FREE!). I support Dean/Castielin email in theory, I just can't get it to play out the right way in my head. If that makes sense. If it doesn't, that's okay, too.
In the meantime, I'll be over here playing with Misha. (Heh. Dirty.)
The day Castiel meets Dean, he feels doubt for the first time. It's Dean's despair at the thought that God might actually exist that cuts through him. For most people, it is comfort. For Dean, it throws everything he knows into question, that God would let people suffer so, that God would want Dean out of hell.
His doubt triggers Castiel's, sharp and unexpected.
But it's not Dean's doubt that breaks him. After that, he fortified himself against it. It is the moment he realizes Dean trusted him. Castiel never had any hope of defending himself against Dean Winchester's faith.
***
Which led to my musings about why I want to, but can't quite hop fully onboard the Dean/Castiel ship. (Which is not to say I'm opposed to it. I fully acknowledge that these are my own issues and I'm certainly not trying to derail anyone else's enjoyment of the ship. Cool?)
It's mired in several layers of crazy, JSYK. Setting aside the whole porn issue, I am an OTPer at heart in that way that I love epic creepy obsessive pairings (See: Clark/Lex). And the thing is, Dean/Castiel is epic enough, but it seems fairly one-sided on Castiel's part. Rather, I have a much clearer picture of how Castiel feels about Dean than how Dean feels about Castiel. Dean's feelings on that remain rather murky in my head. Because Dean is still wholly devoted to Sam. Which brings me back to my OTP issues, because in order to ship them, I want Dean's feelings to be on (or at least near) the same level and I just don't think they are.
Not yet, anyway, and I will be interested to see the fallout of everything that went down in Lucifer Rising. I don't think at the point where we left Dean that he would know the first thing to do with the devotion of which Castiel is capable. Castiel is built for faith and following and I don't know that Dean has considered the ramifications of that beyond, "How can I use this to help Sam?" Which makes Dean sound usery. I don't necessarily mean it like that.
Castiel falls into an interesting slot in Dean's world. He is someone Dean doesn't need to protect, nor necessarily respect. In a weird way, Dean interacts with Castiel as something of an equal (sort of a, "Shh, Sam, the grown-ups are talking now and here's what we've decided"). The hubris of this is somewhat amusing, all things considered. Dean not only questions Castiel, but in some cases acts as though Castiel is accountable to him. He doesn't quite forget that Castiel might have his own agenda, but at the same time, he truly believes that Castiel is on his side. It's a weird sort of faith Dean has in Castiel, but it is, or has been to this point, based around keeping Sam safe.
Castiel is the brother-in-arms that Dean wants Sam to be (but often prevents Sam from being). WRT Sam, it is something akin to a more fucked-up version of Buffy re: Dawn in The Gift:
Giles: "If the ritual starts then every living creature in this and every other dimension imaginable will suffer unbearable torment and death... including Dawn."
Buffy: "Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her."
Dean is like that, but without the benefit of any semblance of the support system Buffy had. Castiel is Dean's first taste of having a Scooby. He doesn't know what to do with that, yet. Doesn't know how to reconcile what Castiel is and what he represents with the rest of his world. But Castiel has the potential to be something Dean has never had before, if Dean can get over himself enough to realize it. Dean has some issues.
I think I have hit rambling now, so I'll wrap it up.
In conclusion: I think Castiel is in love with Dean in an epic way. I reserve judgment on where Dean stands until we see how some of the stuff in S5 plays out (I AM SPOILER FREE!). I support Dean/Castiel
In the meantime, I'll be over here playing with Misha. (Heh. Dirty.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 02:39 am (UTC)This makes sense.
Part of my issues with Dean/Castiel is the whole 'in my mind, angels are sexless beings' aspect. I have difficulties with Dean/Sam because the sibling incest kinda weirds me out (I still read some Dean/Sam stories because I have long been known for sacrificing a dislike if a story has sufficient 'likes' to make me start it. And once I start something I often will finish it), but I have difficulty seeing Dean in a long-term romantic relationship with someone because of the depth of the Dean&Sam-- as you say, it would have to be someone that he cares about at least on par with the level he cares about Sam, and that's just damn difficult when you are fighting supernatural critters, averting the apocalypse and traveling around constantly.
Oh, and there was one Dean/Castiel fic I actually really really liked, by trinityofone, would you like a link?
Sorry for the rambling.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 02:51 am (UTC)For me, it has to be justified and really shown as fucked-up as it is. But, really, I've read a lot of gen in this fandom that reads like angstporn because Sam and Dean are so that even if they're not, y'know, that that. Y'know?
Oh, and there was one Dean/Castiel fic I actually really really liked, by trinityofone, would you like a link?
Yes, please! I have read some that I like, for sure. I'm just having some problems really getting into the pairing. Onscreen, I think they're intense and hot like burning. GUH!
Sorry for the rambling.
Pfft. Don't be ridiculous!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 03:17 am (UTC)Yeaaaaah, I do. It's just... ingrain cultural taboo, ya know?
It's kind of funny, actually. Because not really being comfortable with S/D or D/Cas eliminates *so much* of the fic in this fandom. There's a meta bopping around in my head on the whys and hows of Sam/Dean creeping me out and when it doesn't and fic examples (of things I enjoy. I'm generally not so much with the explicit linkings to things I don't enjoy.), but I'm not sure anyone would care enough to read it. And it's actually lower in priority to at least two other meta posts (both of which I am actively writing. Gah, I'm such a fucking slow writer, it's hysterical. Except for the part where it isn't actually.) Anyway, where was I?
Oh yeah, S/D. Right, so there's two other parts to this: (a) I'm a big believer in the possibility of very strong bonds (including 'I will literally die for you') that don't have to be romantic. And that goes double for family-- adopted or blood. And (b), I'm such a wuss about blood and gore that I have actually seen no eps of this show. I read fic, I'm writing fic, I read the meta, I read ep summaries, and pic spams, I just.... I don't like gore. So I don't actually know about the on-screen parts.
Now with lack of html because I'm lazy. I'm not sure if this will be exactly your cup of beans, but it might be...
fic link: http://trinityofone.livejournal.com/174884.html
Title: Make the Man
Rating: NC-17
Pairing: Castiel/Dean Smith (Dean/Castiel)
Spoilers: Let’s say to the end of the season to be safe, though the focus is 4x17
Length: ~9,000 words
Summary: He realized he was attempting a level of subterfuge for which he was unprepared. It was one thing to walk among humans. It was quite another to pretend to be one.
Pfft. Don't be ridiculous!
Ha! Just for that, more rambling!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 03:48 am (UTC)Ahahahaaaa! Of course!! I was not suggesting that there was something wrong with you for finding it squicky.
Because not really being comfortable with S/D or D/Cas eliminates *so much* of the fic in this fandom.
It really does. Though, I think more than other fandoms I've been in, there is some high quality interesting gen in SPN, even from people who do write Wincest.
There's a meta bopping around in my head on the whys and hows of Sam/Dean creeping me out and when it doesn't and fic examples (of things I enjoy. I'm generally not so much with the explicit linkings to things I don't enjoy.), but I'm not sure anyone would care enough to read it.
I would read it!! I do think it's interesting. I go back and forth, because in terms of their (not necessarily sexual) relationship, they definitely hit some of my buttons (fucked-upedness and so wrapped up in each other in a crazy compelling way) but it's, yeah. IDK. Complicated. I don't think I can articulate it properly. SPN: where RPS is the moral high ground.
And it's actually lower in priority to at least two other meta posts (both of which I am actively writing. Gah, I'm such a fucking slow writer, it's hysterical. Except for the part where it isn't actually.) Anyway, where was I?
To be fair, meta's hard! *grins* It takes a surprising amount of thinking!!
Oh yeah, S/D. Right, so there's two other parts to this: (a) I'm a big believer in the possibility of very strong bonds (including 'I will literally die for you') that don't have to be romantic. And that goes double for family-- adopted or blood.
See, (in a semantics-type thing) I fall on the side of romantic relationships that don't have to be sexual (which is how I classify Sam and Dean). I'm not actually trying to argue with you, btw. This is totally all ymmv stuff.
And (b), I'm such a wuss about blood and gore that I have actually seen no eps of this show. I read fic, I'm writing fic, I read the meta, I read ep summaries, and pic spams, I just.... I don't like gore. So I don't actually know about the on-screen parts.
Ahahahaaaaa!!! *adores* I think it just depends on the person. One of my friends, who is one of the perviest people I know, absolutely doesn't see any Wincesty overtones whatsoever. Not because she is opposed to the incest, she just doesn't see it in this instance. There are some people who don't see Dean/Cas at all onscreen whereas I think they are HOT LIKE BURNING. But have fic issues. *shrugs*
I think I have that story bookmarked!! (I am woefully behind...)
Ha! Just for that, more rambling!
BRING IT!! ;D
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 04:19 am (UTC)You are a bad mean enabler and I feel that this is the start of a
beautifulhorrible friendship. *shakes finger at you*I was not suggesting that there was something wrong with you for finding it squicky.
And I was not suggesting that you were suggesting that either! I was mostly complaining (because it gets in the way of my fic-reading, dammit!)
Though, I think more than other fandoms I've been in, there is some high quality interesting gen in SPN, even from people who do write Wincest.
This is the first fandom that I've been in where I aggressively pursue the gen, because it's the first one where I've been made uncomfortable by the main pairing(s)... But you are right that there is some awesomesause gen out there.
I would read it!! I do think it's interesting. I go back and forth, because in terms of their (not necessarily sexual) relationship, they definitely hit some of my buttons (fucked-upedness and so wrapped up in each other in a crazy compelling way) but it's, yeah. IDK.
Oh, and I love me some gen fic that explores their relationship, because, yeah, there's so very much to work with. Have you read chash's somethingsomething verse where Sam & Dean are estranged ex'es? I kind of love it to pieces because there's *even more* to work with than the canon in terms of emotional territory. (hmm, looks up link to master post: ) I'm kind of sad that she stopped writing it mid-season 1.
And now that I've got someone who's said she would be interested in the meta I'm likely to actually write it. (I'm such a sucker for being told that people are interested in my written thoughts.) Just the meta about the absence of bisexuality in fic and the one on making headers useful for reccers and how we ought to reserve the word 'summary' for fucking summaries and invent a new term called 'cryptic teaser line' for those so-called summaries that are actually not fucking summarising anything but are instead fucking cryptic. Those come first. It's an odd collection of things I'm driven to meta on.
Also, you might be interested, next week (ie starting this coming Sunday),
Complicated. I don't think I can articulate it properly. SPN: where RPS is the moral high ground.
Snerk. Oh SPN, how fucked up are you :) (And yeah, the 'complicated' is part of why I haven't even started a draft on this meta yet. And my thoughts keep evolving. So that makes it hard, too.)
See, (in a semantics-type thing) I fall on the side of romantic relationships that don't have to be sexual (which is how I classify Sam and Dean).
Hmm, see... I dunno what I feel about romantic-but-not-sexual relationships... I'm not sure they exist inside of my head (just saying, I don't think that's how I'm wired. Or maybe that it's not how I define things.) The closest I can see for a romantic-but-not-sexual relationship is 'really close friends, the sort who mentally live in each other's pockets but they're not interested in sex with each other', which, as I said earlier, I just classify as 'really close friends'. Possibly with 'honourary family' tacked on. Although not necessarily. When you say that, what do you mean?
I'm not actually trying to argue with you, btw. This is totally all ymmv stuff.
I'm not trying for arguing either! I like to debate and discuss and unfortunately for you, you've caught me when I should be doing chores (ahahhahaa, my flat laughs at me) and I'd rather be thinky-ing in comments :) So, yay, discussions!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 04:21 am (UTC)Also, I totally almost went to a meta-about-the-things-I-meta-about place. Ahahahaa, recursive meta can't be good!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-17 01:20 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 04:37 am (UTC)beautifulhorrible friendship. *shakes finger at you*I'm okay with that. *grins*
And I was not suggesting that you were suggesting that either! I was mostly complaining (because it gets in the way of my fic-reading, dammit!)
Okay, good. Just so we're on the same page.
And now that I've got someone who's said she would be interested in the meta I'm likely to actually write it. (I'm such a sucker for being told that people are interested in my written thoughts.)
Yes!! I am like this as well. I need only the barest hint of encouragement, generally speaking. Which I generally get by poking someone and being all, "So I was thinking of writing this..." I am both shameless and hoarish.
and how we ought to reserve the word 'summary' for fucking summaries and invent a new term called 'cryptic teaser line' for those so-called summaries that are actually not fucking summarising anything but are instead fucking cryptic.
AHAHAHAAA!! I DO THIS!!! Mostly because otherwise my summaries would all be variations of, "and then hijinks ensue". They are definitely not my strong suit.
Those come first. It's an odd collection of things I'm driven to meta on.
That's fair.
When you say that, what do you mean?
Hmm. IDK if I can properly articulate at the moment, but I'll try. I would classify Sam and Dean's relationship as romantic because of their level of devotion for each other. They are the person in each other's lives. They choose each other over and over again, beyond the boundaries of normal familial love. Without even knocking that into inappropriate sexual relations, it's inappropriate. There will never be a romantic relationship that will come close to rivaling what they are to each other. Which is romantic in a way, in my mind. Totally dysfunctional, but still.
I like to debate and discuss and unfortunately for you, you've caught me when I should be doing chores (ahahhahaa, my flat laughs at me) and I'd rather be thinky-ing in comments :) So, yay, discussions!
Yay discussions!! Though, ugh. I should be off to bed now. Tomorrow is gonna suuuck! Luckily it's Friday, so, there's that. (Which is not to say the discussion need end, just that I won't be able to respond further until after work tomorrow...)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-14 07:27 am (UTC)Hahahahahaaa, evil! *grins back*
Yes!! I am like this as well. I need only the barest hint of encouragement, generally speaking. Which I generally get by poking someone and being all, "So I was thinking of writing this..." I am both shameless and hoarish.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who does this *feels more normal*
And I've got to say, I'm generally happy with the craziness you post:) I'm still waiting for unicorn!Dean. Or unicorn!Sam. Or Castiel? Or Bobby!!!!! (*hugs kitten!dean story. Did I actually post the really insanely long comment on that that I meant to write? Or did I just pretend to write it?)
AHAHAHAAA!! I DO THIS!!! Mostly because otherwise my summaries would all be variations of, "and then hijinks ensue". They are definitely not my strong suit.
I'm a fan of 'and then hijinks ensue'! I think that's actually on my interest list on my profile...
The one summary I think I've done okay on is the one where the title of the story is the actual summary. And I never actually intended to write the story, the title was just supposed to be an amusing way to suggest using cut-up print-outs instead of action figures when doing photomanips. But then people told me that it sounded interesting. And then I wrote it. But every other summary I've tried to write just sucks. (The Time When Rodney Dreamt They Were All Two-Dimensional Paper Things* and Spent the Whole Time Scaling the Ridiculously High Cliffs and Obnoxiously Rough Terrain of Bread Mountains (http://codenamebacon.wetpaint.com/page/Harvest+Bread), link goes to the page with the picture, the story link is at the bottom of the page. *There's actually three footnotes, because I'm a huge dork. On the pdf version, the title, author, header line, and footnotes take up a full page (on A5 paper, but still). The project head kind of forced me to come up with a short title just so that the links to the story wouldn't be insanely long. But in my head the real title is the insanely long one.)
The thing about the summary/cryptic teaser line is, they serve different purposes for the reader, the writer, and the reccer. So authors are generally more a fan of the cryptic teaser line, reccers (ie, me) are all gung-ho about the fucking summary, and the reader will kind of waffle between the two depending on the phase of the moon or some such.
Sometimes the cryptic teaser line *adds* to the story! I'm not advocating getting rid of it. Just labeling it as what it is! (I'm currently engaged in a staring contest with a fic I've read before, found okay, but don't remember anything else about it. And the summary? Is a list of colours [which, in the story's defense, actually kind of makes sense in the context of the story and I remember thinking it rather cool when I figured out how the 'summary' tied into the story. Not that I remember *how* it ties in now, so cf previous statement about it not being useful as a summary.] And I'm refusing to click on it because IT'S NOT A FUCKING SUMMARY! IT'S A DAMN CRYPTIC TEASER LINE! It's possible I am a bit strange....)
Right, rambling. Might as well wait a bit and just write it up coherently in the meta on the topic. Although for that I may leave out that I'm engaged in a staring contest with a master fic list, just in an attempt to preserve my dignity ;)
Hmm. IDK if I can properly articulate at the moment, but I'll try.
Huh. *thinks on what you said* I think we're talking about the same thing for the boys, but with different labels. OMFG but canon has fuckzored them up. Possibly more thoughts on this to be found in the meta-to-be.
Yay discussions!! Though, ugh. I should be off to bed now. Tomorrow is gonna suuuck! Luckily it's Friday, so, there's that. (Which is not to say the discussion need end, just that I won't be able to respond further until after work tomorrow...)
No worries, I'm having to do my own disappearing act right now too. Sleep well! And best of luck on Friday not utterly sucking!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-17 01:32 am (UTC)IDK, I think you commented... *is too lazy to go back and check*
I'm a fan of 'and then hijinks ensue'! I think that's actually on my interest list on my profile...
Ahhahahaha!! Awesome!!
The one summary I think I've done okay on is the one where the title of the story is the actual summary. And I never actually intended to write the story, the title was just supposed to be an amusing way to suggest using cut-up print-outs instead of action figures when doing photomanips. But then people told me that it sounded interesting. And then I wrote it. But every other summary I've tried to write just sucks.
*nods* Really, titles, summaries and headers are a gigantic pain in my ass!! One of my favorite musicians has a bunch of songs titled, "Love Song #--" The last time I saw him live, he was like, "I actually just named them that because I didn't want to come up with a name. I have no idea what number goes to which song." Both hilarious and awesome!!
(The Time When Rodney Dreamt They Were All Two-Dimensional Paper Things* and Spent the Whole Time Scaling the Ridiculously High Cliffs and Obnoxiously Rough Terrain of Bread Mountains, link goes to the page with the picture, the story link is at the bottom of the page. *There's actually three footnotes, because I'm a huge dork. On the pdf version, the title, author, header line, and footnotes take up a full page (on A5 paper, but still). The project head kind of forced me to come up with a short title just so that the links to the story wouldn't be insanely long. But in my head the real title is the insanely long one.)
*laughs*
The thing about the summary/cryptic teaser line is, they serve different purposes for the reader, the writer, and the reccer. So authors are generally more a fan of the cryptic teaser line, reccers (ie, me) are all gung-ho about the fucking summary, and the reader will kind of waffle between the two depending on the phase of the moon or some such.
Yeah, that makes sense. Generally, if I can get away with it, I do the first line of the fic. But, when I'm looking for fic to read, I'm all, "But what is it about?" *is both contrary and hypocritical*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-17 02:42 am (UTC)Seriously? Bwahahahhahaaa! One of these days I'm going to write something and call it 'untitled' in that terribly pretentious 1970's sort of way: 'Untitled no. 72: A musing Upon haberdashery' or something, just for giggles.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-18 12:46 am (UTC)Untitled no. 72: A musing Upon haberdashery
I wholeheartedly approve!!