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errant_janeI generally try and avoid wank and srs bznz discussions unless I feel that I have something to contribute that others have not already said more eloquently. In this case, I guess it's more of a signal boost, as I don't really feel like my experience as a privileged white girl has a place in the discussion. I will say, though, that it's an important discussion to be aware of and keep an eye on, even if you don't feel comfortable contributing to it personally.
This is the society we've inherited, these are the problems/issues we have to deal with. The absolute very least we can do is educate ourselves.
This is the society we've inherited, these are the problems/issues we have to deal with. The absolute very least we can do is educate ourselves.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 01:20 am (UTC)No argument here: I fully agree that this whole story was an enormous mistake. But so much of the response has been an equal pile of fail. (Not to say that there hasn't been some awesome discussion because there HAS, and I am once again amazed at some of the smart, well-spoken individuals in fandom) but a lot of the comments have left a sour taste in my mouth. Hi, hello there, advice: the way to show you are an enlightened commenter is not to call someone a racist cow. FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
I actually read that story (okay... most of it. I skipped to the end halfway through) and yeah. It's hard to believe that NOBODY, not the author or the betas or the artist, caught all the zippity-doo-dah white privilege. But dial down the rhetoric--she didn't write about how black people are ignorant savages, she just wrote a very ill-advised story that didn't intend to harm anyone, it only went, "HAI! MY PRIVILEGE, LET ME SHOW YOU IT!" It needs to be addressed, certainly, but come the fuck on -- constructive criticism: YES! "Ignorant white cunt" = NO. UGH. I think the venomous reactions are almost as offensive.
Similarly, I read the author's apology. Good on her for writing one, I hope she really does understand the mistakes she made. But I had to pause when she apologized for "hurting" people and then simply marvel at the audacity of fandom. Just. Really? This hurt people, fandom? Like, it broke your heart and made you sad and you actually cried? You were viscerally moved? Please. I think that's righteous white privilege on the part of the commenters. WHY, I AM GOING TO BE TOTALLY OUTRAGED TO SHOW HOW NOT WHITE PRIVILEGED I AM. Fffffffft. Sure, maybe it angered you or upset you or annoyed you or offended you... but HURT you? I can't believe the author had to apologize for HURTING people when the majority of fandom is full of privileged white girls who couldn't possibly have been "hurt" by the story. And okay, fine, I'm wrong, maybe somebody WAS legitimately hurt by it, I don't know, I'm making a general conjecture and we know how those turn out. But if anyone was hurt by it, it still wasn't the 192428374 fangirls claiming they were. Whatevs, I just dislike the Righteous Brigade, I guess.
I think the correct (and FUCKING CIVIL) response to this is not "OMFG HOW THE FUCK COULD SHE WRITE THAT IT'S DISGUSTING JESUS CHRIST WHAT IS WRONG WITH HER" as has been but "Wow, honestly, and no hostility here, let's talk about how she could write this and not understand its inherent problems. She was perpetuating deeply ingrained racial attitudes that she might not even have been aware of--and why is that? How did that happen?" Reaction one: immature and detrimental. Reaction two: actually fucking relevant to the discussion. FUCK.
I think what upset me just as much was writing about the tragedy while it's still sort of... y'know... ongoing. And then there's the racefail.
And just to be a DICK and stir the pot: So, like, WHEN is it okay for a white girl to write about black people? Or for a white person to write about black people in general?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 01:56 am (UTC)I didn't feel personally victimized in any way. I still felt uncomfortable enough with the premise that I didn't want to read it. That's a personal thing.
I definitely agree that there were a lot of nasty comments that were uncalled for (quite honestly, things that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying to someone who was being actively and intentionally malicious). That doesn't mean that people, in fact, weren't hurt by the story. I can only speak to and answer for my reaction (which was, "That seems not okay" when I read the summary). Cop-out? Perhaps.
Which is why I linked to the post above and I do think that it's an important discussion to have. Here is why: I often have a hard enough time recognizing the things that directly affect me, until someone points it out and I go, "Huh. Oh yeah. That is shitty." Let alone things that I never have to deal with. So, yeah, I think the dialogue is important. Ideally, people would be civil about it all the way around.
I don't have an answer for you there. I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 05:19 am (UTC)I feel you on the things that directly affect me front. I am a self-involved, selfish asshole at the best of times and I need people to periodically pop my self-absorbed bubble and go, "HEY IDJIT. PAY ATTENTION." Then I get that "Oh yeeeeeah," moment of realization. And then I usually experience some guilt because I was being a shallow dick. Again. I think we're all a little like that, as far as things directly affecting us. Like, if I hadn't known you? During the flooding in TN, I'd have been more likely to see it on NPR or TV and go, "Huh, that sucks" and not think about it much afterwards. But your posts were my idjit-pay-attention. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 02:02 am (UTC)You have a point about name calling and flying off the handle when it comes to white people in these circumstances, but that brushes so close to the traditional Tone Argument that it's probably best just left alone, you know? Do we always have to be civil, though?
The issue here isn't that she wrote about black people. It's always ok for white people to write about black people as long as they treat them as human beings and not as plot devices to further the agenda of the hot gay sex.
We're friends, I'm just telling you how I feel.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 05:12 am (UTC)Yeah, my only issue with that is when it descends to puerility, nobody benefits from the discussion anymore. I don't think you have to be civil, (Fuck that noise!) just don't be a raging asshole.
I agree. It's always going to be hard because a white writer (ANY writer) brings their own privilege and prejudice and whatever to the table, but it can definitely be done. And I--wait. Does that mean... are there OTHER things I can't use as plot devices to further the agenda of hot gay sex? D: THIS IS TROUBLING, KASSIE.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 03:00 am (UTC)I can't see it as something that simple, it's not, it simply isn't. I've read the story, and the quotes many have compiled aren't out of context, or misconstrued, or presented in a vacuum: they're endemic. It's not a simple error of wrong time, wrong place, too soon, etc. It's not a simple issue of white-privilege blinding the writer to the impact of using real human misery as a playground for porn. The story continually employs horrifically racist tropes to tell its misguided story, and dehumanizes and trivializes its POC characters. When a story ends with comparing the one black character in the story with the most lines to a giant cat seen on Animal Planet, kept as a pet, by the main two characters, there's a problem. And it's not one that could have been solved by simply reconsidering the human atrocity to mine for porn at the very beginning.
And to be honest, and I'm not trying to be confrontational here, this intensely bothers me: I think the venomous reactions are almost as offensive. Not only is the tone argument a classic form of derailing, it's equating two forms of pain that are inherently not equivalent. They just aren't. Whether you feel white fangirls have the right to lend their voices to the outrage or not, the people it has hurt, and rightfully so, are still the victims. Period. And equating their pain to a white girl painfully discovering the scope of her privilege helps no one -- the fangirl in question who needs to learn, and the state of POC and minorities in fandom who shouldn't be afraid to speak up.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 05:00 am (UTC)WE can read into the black man as kept pet as much as we want, but that isn't NOT what the author intended. Period. She didn't say to herself, "Self! I think shall turn the black character into an animal because naturally he is kind of like an animal anyway, what with how noble and earthy and clever but not quite human that he is. It is a perfect! He was kind of like Jensen's pet, anyway." Is anybody really arguing that it was deliberate on her part? (And NO--before anyone jumps on that particular bandwagon--intent is not justification nor excuse. It simply is what it is (the road to hell, good intentions, etc.) and, I feel, should be considered as a basis for how to proceed with the subsequent schoolin'. Whether or not the author intended it to be offensive, it was, and she needs to be informed. She needs people to help her examine why that seemed LOGICAL to her--why that motif showed up in her writing, why it's ignorant, how it's the result of deep-seated cultural racism that isn't violent or hateful but still sees POC as Other. If the author has NO IDEA it was shitty, then it's our job to educate him or her in an appropriate fashion. And that brings us to the wonderful issue of tone:
I'm not making a tone argument. Like Kassie said, we can leave that one alone. What I AM saying is that you can be as strident or passionate or opinionated or loud or whatever in your argument/defense but if you run up to someone and shout, "HEY ASSHOLE, YEAH YOU FUCKWIT, YOU LISTEN UP," the person you are addressing is going to be PRETTY FUCKING UNLIKELY to LISTEN, HELLO or take you seriously at all. And if we're going with the theory that, y'know, this whole episode is a chance for race-related discourse (and I think we are) then it is important to foster dialogue, not SHUT IT DOWN. Which is, naturally, what name calling accomplishes--beautifully. Not only does it make you look like a total asshole, thus devaluing your credibility, it gives the other person the ability to MAKE the fucking victim argument for themselves in the first place, which is ANNOYING BEYOND BELIEF. Don't give them the ammo, ffs!
For instance, if I had replied with: "Not to be confrontational, but you're a fucking stupid cow and you have no idea what you're talking about and maybe you should shut your fat hole and leave the talking to the intelligent people" you probably went ragey-faced riiiiiight around "fucking stupid cow." I could have had the BEST argument in the world following that cheerful sentence and you didn't hear it at all because you were IMMEDIATELY focused on being defensive because I was attacking you. I'm not saying we need a kid-gloves, honey vs. vinegar approach when it comes to racefail discussion, but personal attacks don't accomplish anything and THAT derails the conversation.
I'm not equating anything. I could care less about the author in question's "pain" levels. What I DO care about is her involvement in the discussion, and her edification--since that is purportedly the WHOLE POINT--and I should be trying to maximize her investment in the discourse, not actively minimizing it.
I also didn't say white fangirls don't have the right to voice their opinion. Just don't be disingenuous about it. Don't be hyperbolic. Don't equate YOUR outrage and hurt with the outrage and hurt that a victim would feel. That's the white girl privilege I'm talking about. Does this situation anger me? Yes. Do I have the temerity to suggest that it has hurt me like I am a true victim? No. Does my level of hurt compare to that of a POC who has had to deal with this shit all their lives? No. Let's keep out discussion real, here.
Keepin' it real
Date: 2010-06-16 08:23 am (UTC)The author's edification is not more important than my right to express outrage at her blatantly racist, eighty-thousand word-long fanfiction. I have encountered and endured so much media where the same tropes and the same bullshit resulted from white people's ostensible good intentions that I categorically question statements like this: "If the author has NO IDEA it was shitty, then it's our job to educate him or her in an appropriate fashion".
'Our' job? Whose? Certainly not mine. The entire third paragraph of your first comment in this thread indicates, to me, that you didn't factor in the possibility that some of the fans who talk about being hurt by that fic may not actually be white at all!
In the third paragraph in your comment that I am replying to, you are again making an assumption about race and privilege, and basing the rhetoric of your response on that assumption.
I do not even pretend to know the kind of pain that someone who is from Haiti/whose family or friends are there would feel upon coming across this RACIST (oh crap, I just gave myself away as unenlightened) TEXT THAT WAS DEVELOPED OVER MONTHS. However, I do not have white girl privilege. I do have every right to express my anger and my contempt for this fanfic, and to question the nuance and attitude of the apology post I read on the author's lj last night. It is not at all "obvious" to me that the author was "trying to imbue her POCs with humanity and sympathy". I also have absolutely no obligation to educate someone with white privilege how to write non-racist fiction.
You talk about wanting to foster dialogue, and not shutting it down, and then you fucking go and erase the existence and experience of people of colour within this fandom. Thanks for letting me know that I am not capable of any "correct and FUCKING CIVIL" response to that hot mess of a fic.
tl;dr. In sum, your white privilege is showing very hard.
Re: Keepin' it real
Date: 2010-06-16 12:53 pm (UTC)Nowhere did I comment on the right of POC to respond to this. In fact, my suggestion, if you're paying attention, is that they have MORE of a right to respond. I'm talking about white fangirls acting like this affects them as equally as it would a person of color, which is just another form of white privilege. So, yeah. Not erasing anyone.
And if it's not your job to help educate someone when they're being a dickwad, whose is it? How is anything going to change? If everyone said, "It's not my job," there'd be no such thing as progress.
"Thanks for letting me know that I am not capable of any "correct and FUCKING CIVIL" response to that hot mess of a fic."
Thanks for totally misreading my comment about white fangirl privilege and making it about you.
Re: Keepin' it real
Date: 2010-06-16 02:40 pm (UTC)And to the more specific points of erasing people, actually yes. Your comments did. Especially in the paragraph including this: But if anyone was hurt by it, it still wasn't the 192428374 fangirls claiming they were. You're making a general statement about fandom's experience as if fandom is homogeneously white, and thus has never been personally hurt by racism. The implied "we" in your comments is in fact "people who look like me", and it negates the experience of everyone who isn't in your "we".
I understand the point you've been trying to get at, but the way you've formed your comments here has been offensive. I hope you can take a step back and see why that is.
Re: Keepin' it real
Date: 2010-06-16 04:40 pm (UTC)However, I wasn't referring to fandom as a whole. That would be stupid, because fandom is clearly made up of more than white people. I was--and still am--referring to white fangirls specifically. I thought I was being clear; if I wasn't clear enough, I'll try to be clearer in the future to avoid offense.
The implied "we" was exactly about people who look like me, yes, but not as if they wholly represent fandom--just that they are the people I am specifically referencing at that particular moment. The missing word here: But if anyone was hurt by it, it still wasn't the 192428374 white fangirls claiming they were was missing from my comment, not my mind. My point was that the 192428374 white fangirls acting like they share the hurt equally with POC is not only ridiculous, it's harmful to the conversation.
And as to the reading:
1) I'm not saying don't get angry. In fact, I said the opposite in my comment. Get angry! Be passionate, strident, and opinionated in your response! People should be angry about this kind of bullshit! Anger doesn't damage a cause--but fifteen people all commenting YOUR MOM SHOULD HAVE ABORTED YOU!! does. Personal attacks don't really have a place in the discussion.
2) Educate is the wrong word, so I should have said "opening the conversation." The first step is always to let the person know they're being offensive. Say, "Whoa there. You need to figure out some stuff." And you don't have to go beyond that. If you want to, then you can help them out more. Of course it's not your responsibility to hold their hand through everything. However, this is one derailing argument that also has some legit basis: if NO ONE--whether POC or other Privileged folks--thinks it's their job to educate people, who is going to do it? How is a White Privileged person going to educate themselves when there aren't any resources for them to access? When there's no one willing to dialogue? It reminds me of the "If you don't know, then I'm not telling you" sort of argument. I know this derailing technique has been used by lots of Privileged people, and that sucks, but there's some relevancy when it's tied to general personal attacks lacking anything constructive. I'm not sure how I could make this clearer. My personal feeling is that "You're a bitch/You suck/How could you!?!" type comments are essentially pointless because they serve no purpose when it comes to knocking down White Privilege; they can even reinforce it. Far better to say "This is totally offensive. You need to figure out why. Ask around." That's the element of "education" I'm referencing.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 04:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 05:24 pm (UTC)Who said anything about polite education? I said don't be a raging asshat.
And that's amazing!--I didn't realize you knew me well enough to determine what I expend energy on beyond this conversation.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 06:03 pm (UTC)You know what, I'm going to apologize to
(no subject)
Date: 2010-06-16 06:22 pm (UTC)Whose conversation was I policing? My OWN? My bad, I thought we were having a discussion. WHOOPS.
(Sorry if you didn't want this conversation in your comments,