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errant_janeOkay, fl! I know I'm a little late to the game, but OMG SHOW!! Let's discuss, shall we?
This may turn out to be far tl;dr and lacking in any sort of coherent narrative. JSYK. That being said, let's start out here—In a surprise upset, the Woobiest Winchester award for this episode goes to John!
OMG, John broke my heart in all kinds of different ways this episode. I LOVED it. I guess I should start off by saying, I've never been on the anti-John side of things. While I don't necessarily think he was the best parent ever, I've always thought that he was a good man stuck in a shit situation and doing the best he could. This episode reinforced that.
I really could devote a whole post to how fascinating he is, and kudos to the casting people for both JDM and Matt, as they do a fantastic job of making John likable and sympathetic.Also, it doesn't hurt that they're both ridiculously hot. I'm just saying.
In a way, I found John the most heartbreaking in this episode because he was the only one who hadn't been raised as a hunter (yes, I get the irony of this in that he raised Sam and Dean, but that aside). He'd been to war and back, but he had this innocence that none of the rest of them do/did, which makes the way he loses Mary that much more devastating.
Without going all John apologist, I think that this episode solidified what a good man he really was. He got thrown into a horrible situation and he did the best he could. I suppose he could have given Sam and Dean to someone else to raise, but I think that he kept them with him because it was the only way he could think to protect them. If nothing else, this episode showed how very much John hates feeling helpless. Mary's death made him feel helpless and he made damn sure afterwards that neither he nor his boys would be there again.
It also makes me wonder exactly when John found out about Sam and the demon blood. Did he know all along? Was it something he discovered later? I'll have to think on that some more.
In conclusion: John ♥♥♥ FOREVER!!!
MOVING ON!
I really liked the memory wipe, which fits in with what we got from In the Beginning. It is one of the few episodes I've actually watched with the commentary and I remember them saying that it was their intention that Dean always showed up then, that he is the one who pointed Azazel in Mary's direction. The memory-wipe completes that, I think.
It also raises interesting questions wrt the free will/destiny issue. The whole thing was a direct result of angels moving the chess pieces around and then it becomes a mindfuck in a way that I've not had enough coffee yet today to consider.
Question: Was this whole jumpback arranged so that Michael would have a chance to chat with Dean? I mean, because clearly Zachariah sucks at PR. (Sidenote: I really feel like I sort of called this one from waaaaaaaaay back. This is me being ridiculous and self-congratulatory.)
BACK TO THE FAMILY BUSINESS:
I really like the parallels drawn between John and Mary and Sam and Dean. I don't know if I've said this here, or if I've only said it in conversations with people, but it goes something like this:
Mary/Dean: Their reactions to losing John/Sam were to go off and make really stupid deals.
John/Sam: Their reactions to losing Mary/Dean were to go BATSHIT INSANE. John, at least, had Sam and Dean to keep him grounded. Sam had nothing.
Um, I guess I don't actually have more to say on that. I just really like it a lot. ♥
OKAY, BACK TO DEAN AND MICHAEL:
I feel as though the angels are a little heavy-handed with the parallels they're trying to draw. I think it's OTT, but in that way where it's because they don't really get humans. So Michael's "because I'm a good son" shtick falls a little flat here because Dean's "good son" line has always been drawn at hurting Sam.
Though, "Your darling little Sammy" made me laugh. True stories: the angles do not love each other as much as Sam and Dean do.
Another random thought on this: Are we to believe that Dean can say yes to Michael, smite Lucifer in his other vessel and it will be all good, or was Zachariah's "We need to strike before Lucifer finds his vessel" intended to get Dean to say yes before he discovered that Sam was Lucifer's vessel?
On a shallow note: So, Dean/Possesed!John OTP, anyone? I mean, that's not just my imagination, right? Or is it just that Dean has chemistry with everything?
MY TALL FRIEND SAM:
I admit, I ♥ when Castiel called Sam his friend and, in many ways, I buy a Sam/Castiel friendship more than a Dean/Castiel one. Simmer down, shippers, let me explain.
Sam is the one who has always had faith, he was the one who was excited about the existence of angels. Despite the somewhat rocky path they've taken, I think that Sam does have a real desire to connect with Castiel, and Castiel's past condemnation of Sam's actions are nothing more than Sam feels he deserves.
Also, Sam has a context for friendship that Dean does not. Sam had his slice of civilian life that included normal relationships, he knows what friendship looks like. Dean's model of friendship is based upon John's. A friend is someone who will help you out on a hunt, someone who's got your back. Someone who's death you would regret (and, for Dean, someone who is not actively trying to kill his little brother).
Now, I do think that Dean considers Castiel a friend, but I don't think that Dean fully grasps what that means to other people. I find it much more logical for Castiel to learn what friendship means from Sam.
Of course, his relationship with Sam is also colored by his observed interactions with Sam and Dean, so there's that element of protecting Sam when Sam asks if Anna's plan would work. The look he exchanges with Dean, the fact that he understands and dismisses Anna as crazy. It mirrors the Dean and John's dynamic of old: Keep Sam safe first and foremost.
I love it all. NAWWWW, BOYS! ♥
Other random Castiel thoughts: So, was Castiel's talk about time being all fluid and shit in In the Beginning him trying to be all impressive? Just curious.
"I don't understand that reference." <--So awesome!
OKAY, HOW FUCKING AWESOMELY KICKASS IS MARY?
Oh, Mary, I love you forever. I sort of want an episode of Mary fighting shit. Could we have an origins spinoff for even like a season? Like, Mary as a hunter, being all hot and badass and then trying to date John and be a normal teenager at the same time?
I WOULD WATCH THAT SHOW SO HARD, OKAY?
Final random thoughts: Matt = awesome young!John, but really, show. Could you not do something about his pretty blue eyes? Contacts can't be that expensive.
Dean's "Awkward" is hilarious always. ALWAYS.
So, yeah. In conclusion: I love my show and this episode is a perfect example of why.
SHOW!! AMIRITE?
This may turn out to be far tl;dr and lacking in any sort of coherent narrative. JSYK. That being said, let's start out here—In a surprise upset, the Woobiest Winchester award for this episode goes to John!
OMG, John broke my heart in all kinds of different ways this episode. I LOVED it. I guess I should start off by saying, I've never been on the anti-John side of things. While I don't necessarily think he was the best parent ever, I've always thought that he was a good man stuck in a shit situation and doing the best he could. This episode reinforced that.
I really could devote a whole post to how fascinating he is, and kudos to the casting people for both JDM and Matt, as they do a fantastic job of making John likable and sympathetic.
In a way, I found John the most heartbreaking in this episode because he was the only one who hadn't been raised as a hunter (yes, I get the irony of this in that he raised Sam and Dean, but that aside). He'd been to war and back, but he had this innocence that none of the rest of them do/did, which makes the way he loses Mary that much more devastating.
Without going all John apologist, I think that this episode solidified what a good man he really was. He got thrown into a horrible situation and he did the best he could. I suppose he could have given Sam and Dean to someone else to raise, but I think that he kept them with him because it was the only way he could think to protect them. If nothing else, this episode showed how very much John hates feeling helpless. Mary's death made him feel helpless and he made damn sure afterwards that neither he nor his boys would be there again.
It also makes me wonder exactly when John found out about Sam and the demon blood. Did he know all along? Was it something he discovered later? I'll have to think on that some more.
In conclusion: John ♥♥♥ FOREVER!!!
MOVING ON!
I really liked the memory wipe, which fits in with what we got from In the Beginning. It is one of the few episodes I've actually watched with the commentary and I remember them saying that it was their intention that Dean always showed up then, that he is the one who pointed Azazel in Mary's direction. The memory-wipe completes that, I think.
It also raises interesting questions wrt the free will/destiny issue. The whole thing was a direct result of angels moving the chess pieces around and then it becomes a mindfuck in a way that I've not had enough coffee yet today to consider.
Question: Was this whole jumpback arranged so that Michael would have a chance to chat with Dean? I mean, because clearly Zachariah sucks at PR. (Sidenote: I really feel like I sort of called this one from waaaaaaaaay back. This is me being ridiculous and self-congratulatory.)
BACK TO THE FAMILY BUSINESS:
I really like the parallels drawn between John and Mary and Sam and Dean. I don't know if I've said this here, or if I've only said it in conversations with people, but it goes something like this:
Mary/Dean: Their reactions to losing John/Sam were to go off and make really stupid deals.
John/Sam: Their reactions to losing Mary/Dean were to go BATSHIT INSANE. John, at least, had Sam and Dean to keep him grounded. Sam had nothing.
Um, I guess I don't actually have more to say on that. I just really like it a lot. ♥
OKAY, BACK TO DEAN AND MICHAEL:
I feel as though the angels are a little heavy-handed with the parallels they're trying to draw. I think it's OTT, but in that way where it's because they don't really get humans. So Michael's "because I'm a good son" shtick falls a little flat here because Dean's "good son" line has always been drawn at hurting Sam.
Though, "Your darling little Sammy" made me laugh. True stories: the angles do not love each other as much as Sam and Dean do.
Another random thought on this: Are we to believe that Dean can say yes to Michael, smite Lucifer in his other vessel and it will be all good, or was Zachariah's "We need to strike before Lucifer finds his vessel" intended to get Dean to say yes before he discovered that Sam was Lucifer's vessel?
On a shallow note: So, Dean/Possesed!John OTP, anyone? I mean, that's not just my imagination, right? Or is it just that Dean has chemistry with everything?
MY TALL FRIEND SAM:
I admit, I ♥ when Castiel called Sam his friend and, in many ways, I buy a Sam/Castiel friendship more than a Dean/Castiel one. Simmer down, shippers, let me explain.
Sam is the one who has always had faith, he was the one who was excited about the existence of angels. Despite the somewhat rocky path they've taken, I think that Sam does have a real desire to connect with Castiel, and Castiel's past condemnation of Sam's actions are nothing more than Sam feels he deserves.
Also, Sam has a context for friendship that Dean does not. Sam had his slice of civilian life that included normal relationships, he knows what friendship looks like. Dean's model of friendship is based upon John's. A friend is someone who will help you out on a hunt, someone who's got your back. Someone who's death you would regret (and, for Dean, someone who is not actively trying to kill his little brother).
Now, I do think that Dean considers Castiel a friend, but I don't think that Dean fully grasps what that means to other people. I find it much more logical for Castiel to learn what friendship means from Sam.
Of course, his relationship with Sam is also colored by his observed interactions with Sam and Dean, so there's that element of protecting Sam when Sam asks if Anna's plan would work. The look he exchanges with Dean, the fact that he understands and dismisses Anna as crazy. It mirrors the Dean and John's dynamic of old: Keep Sam safe first and foremost.
I love it all. NAWWWW, BOYS! ♥
Other random Castiel thoughts: So, was Castiel's talk about time being all fluid and shit in In the Beginning him trying to be all impressive? Just curious.
"I don't understand that reference." <--So awesome!
OKAY, HOW FUCKING AWESOMELY KICKASS IS MARY?
Oh, Mary, I love you forever. I sort of want an episode of Mary fighting shit. Could we have an origins spinoff for even like a season? Like, Mary as a hunter, being all hot and badass and then trying to date John and be a normal teenager at the same time?
I WOULD WATCH THAT SHOW SO HARD, OKAY?
Final random thoughts: Matt = awesome young!John, but really, show. Could you not do something about his pretty blue eyes? Contacts can't be that expensive.
Dean's "Awkward" is hilarious always. ALWAYS.
So, yeah. In conclusion: I love my show and this episode is a perfect example of why.
SHOW!! AMIRITE?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:04 pm (UTC)I sort of want an episode of Mary fighting shit. Could we have an origins spinoff for even like a season? Like, Mary as a hunter, being all hot and badass and then trying to date John and be a normal teenager at the same time?
I second this!
(Also, omg, I may have sobbed out loud when Dean told his mother that it was okay with him if he was never born. Poor Mary! Poor BOYS!! I wanted to give them all hugs and cookies.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:11 pm (UTC)(They are SO ANGSTY and beautiful!!! They make my heart hurt in the best possible way!! Winchester family = hurting so pretty since 1978)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:16 pm (UTC)And I love this observation, because I had seen the Sam/John parallels but not the Dean/Mary ones:
Mary/Dean: Their reactions to losing John/Sam were to go off and make really stupid deals.
John/Sam: Their reactions to losing Mary/Dean were to go BATSHIT INSANE. John, at least, had Sam and Dean to keep him grounded. Sam had nothing.
And I second this SO VERY MUCH: I sort of want an episode of Mary fighting shit. Could we have an origins spinoff for even like a season? Like, Mary as a hunter, being all hot and badass and then trying to date John and be a normal teenager at the same time?
I WOULD WATCH THAT SHOW SO HARD, OKAY?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-06 11:28 pm (UTC)And I love this observation, because I had seen the Sam/John parallels but not the Dean/Mary ones:
Thank you! I remember thinking about it when ITB aired, but yeah. I really like the way they did it.
RIGHT? C'mon, Kripke. According to imdb, Amy and Matt's schedules are free...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 12:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 02:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 05:30 am (UTC)2. Dean noticed his mother was a "babe." I'm pretty sure he must've realized his dad was a hottie too...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 05:07 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 05:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 01:15 am (UTC)I love the dean/Mary, John/Sam contrasts - i hadn't quite thought of it that way. However I would say Sam didn't have nothing - he had Ruby. And she grounded him, just on her grounds and not his!
I particularly love what you show about the differences in Sam and Dean as friends, which of course makes Dean and Castiel a bit of a disaster given Castiel is also not very clued in on the relationship stakes either.
I love Sma and Cass together also because its a relationship that didn't have to happen. There isn't the bond that Dean and Cas have thru the whol Hell thing, if anything there are grounds for antagonism, so the fact that they are freinds is even more spesh.
oh yeah - and re: John knowing about the demon blood. He only tells the boys in Scarecrow I think that he's worked out its a demon. However in the Pilto, amongst his research is stuff about < ahref="http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Cambion">Cambions which are demonic offspring, so maybe he had suspicions earlier on.
sorry for the rambling!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 02:19 am (UTC)You raise an interesting point here. I will have to think on it more.
I really think that Dean and Castiel could have the most dysfunctional friendship ever. It's terribly awkward. *grins*
Yes!! I hope that this is the beginning of more Sam and Castiel interaction, because I think their dynamic has awesome potential.
Oh yes! Thank you! I love your knowledgey brain!!! It's another layer of "hmmm" for John's character - his transition from sweet young!John to gruff hunter!John - at what point does he realize he might have to kill his youngest son? (OMG John! ♥)
You need never apologize for your metay thoughts! I love them!!!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 05:06 am (UTC)John IS utter love. Period.
Sam/Cas friendship is amazing. Agreed. I awwed so hard at that line. (your simmer down shippers note made me snicker.)
"I do not understand that reference" was probably my favorite line of the entire ep.
And, yes, Dean has chemistry with everything. It's Dean. He is the captain Jack Harkness of our century. Sort of. In the way that it was HIS genes they stole to create auto-attraction the pheromones. End of story.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-07 04:15 pm (UTC)I enjoy the Sam/Cas friendship too because it's so innocent and they both try to understand each other.
Dean/Cas's relationship is so different it's an illogical mix of loyalty and passion. Dean and Cas never acted like buddies it's like they just know they are soul mates/partners. (Even if it's not sexual they are an obvious 'couple' emotionally and are in this together they have much higher expectations of each other than any friendship would dictate). I see Dean/ Sam as a father son relationship so Cas is like Sammy's step mom lol
John and Mary both Awesome Agreed!!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-12 08:58 pm (UTC)