More 6x05 thoughts...

[errant_jane]

First off, Coda - Notes: Usually my codas are gen, but this one is not so much. While it is not exactly Sam/Dean, it is Wincesty and R-rated. Also, the views of the POV character do not necessarily reflect the views of the writer. Okay, I think that's it.

Now, I was talking to nola_rue last night and I wanted to clarify what I mean by not!Sam. I don't actually read Sam's actions so far this season as evil. More than anything, I think he's more comparable to Castiel at the very beginning of Season 4 -- Sort of alien and completely detached from his emotions. So I think the scene in the alley was less "Mwahahaha" and more *head tilt* "Let's see what happens now..."

As I said to Nola in comments:

I think that there is no way in any world where Sam is some version of himself (even crazy/evil/despairing/whatever) that he would let someone/something hurt Dean. Which goes back to that idea where Sam's love for Dean is a little bit psychotic. We've seen Sam in the past as willing to do A LOT of shady and morally ambiguous things in the name of keeping Dean safe. So Sam standing idly by while Dean gets vamped (even if he knew 100% for sure that it could be fixed) does not fit with Sam as he has always been WRT Dean.

At wincon I did a SPN panel with missyjack, aggybird, and rhythmsextion (which was so much fun for me, OMG, you don't even know! Hopefully the audience had fun as well..) and we talked a little bit about how Sam and Dean differ in their love of each other.

I do think Sam's love of Dean is a little bit crazy, possessive, obsessive, whatever. Sam is willing to cross a lot of lines in order to save Dean or keep him safe and feel completely justified in doing so. Sam has NO moral qualms about it when it comes to Dean and that more than anything convinces me that his actions in 6x05 prove that he is lacking whatever it is that makes him Sam (his soul, most likely?). Because I think even out-and-out evil!Sam would make Dean his concubine try to get Dean to join him vs. use Dean as an alpha!bait Guinea pig. And I think evil!Sam would be capable of the charm and emotional manipulation necessary to pull that off. Sam as he is right now is not even sociopathic, he's just not there. /my $.02

So, with that as my theory/interpretation, I really enjoyed the episode. I'm insanely curious as to how this whole thing will play out. I admit, I was a little lukewarm about 6x02, still sort of unsure on 6x03, but I am back to clappy hands of glee. I expect much delicious, delicious angst when this all comes to a head (heh). *chinhands* Is it next week yet?

Also, because I already uploaded it for dafnap, have a S3!Dean song. People keep telling me I'm no good, people keep telling me I'm no use/ I keep breathing in and breathing out, walking in a dead man's shoes.

Comments

[destial.livejournal.com]

This may be an unpopular opinion, considering my inbox was full of reactions that can basically be summarized as "THAT'S NOT SAMMY!!!!" when I got up this morning, but I think last night was further proof that it's the real Sam, just altered a bit.

Since the beginning, Sam's been willing to justify a lot of shit in the name of a good cause. Season one, he was okay with kamikazeing himself as long as it took down Yellow Eyes. Season two, he was cool with killing the other psychics because they're "evil." In season three, he was prepared to turn himself and Dean into monsters in order to keep Dean out of hell. And we all remember season four and the drinking of the nicu nurse. If Sam knew there was a cure - which he totally did, I certainly hope you could see that lie he was telling Samuel - then he'd probably always have considered making one of them temporarily a vampire in the pursuit of the greater good. Just.... before he would have discussed it with Dean, probably. Or just done it to himself, believing himself able to resist the call of blood. He's already acknowledge, however, that Dean cares while he doesn't. Dean jumps in to save the day, that's his first reaction, he doesn't even think about it. Well, Sam doesn't think about it either. He just doesn't do it. Sam probably realizes that he doesn't care enough to keep control of himself, but Dean does. We saw based on his conversation with Samuel that Samuel, at least, believes Sam thinks Dean was still Dean, first and foremost. If Dean was Dean, he would never hurt another person like that, he cares too much.

Sam has this habit of believing him call is the right one, believing his judgment is right. These actions are, frighteningly enough, very Sam typical, if executed in a more callous way.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

he was cool with killing the other psychics because they're "evil."

Huh? He tried to stop Max killing himself s1, he tried desperately to find and save Ava in s2, he spent all of 2.21 trying to shepherd the other psy kids around safely, and he spared Jake after Jake attacked him.

[destial.livejournal.com]

And in Simon Said, he contemplated if letting Andy go was the right thing because they're all just murderers. It wasn't until Dean pulled him out of that mind set, made him believe he could do good, that he was back on track with the "they all should have a chance" idea. In the beginning and middle of season two, he believed he and the other psychics were evil, was even sure Dean should stamp him out.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Sam is more of a mixture than that. In the early seasons, he was as often the one arguing against Dean that someone could be saved as the one arguing that something should be killed. He has especially powerful responses to people he sees in situations paralleling his own, reflecting his own fears, but it doesn't always make him ruthless. Even in later seasons, he wanted to believe that the rugaru and Jesse could be good, because he wanted to believe that he himself could be good. It's not so much that he is convinced he's right and callous about anyone who gets in the way of his plans as that he is deeply afraid that he is fundamentally wrong, and sometimes that fear takes the form of a blind drive to carry out and justify his views, and other times it takes the form of trying to rescue people to prove that people can be rescued. It's that conflict that seems to be missing in him now.

I sometimes feel that fandom has reacted against the false image of sensitive, bleeding-heart Sam too far and substituted an always manipulative and cold Sam; I don't think either is the truth.

[destial.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not arguing that Sam is evil or that he's ruthless. Sam has shown compassion. Sam has been far more understanding than Dean in some situations. Sam is a very complex character.

But I believe that he is no where near as sensitive as fandom suggests now. Dean, in my opinion, has always been the more compassionate one. This can be seen as early as episode two, Wendigo. It isn't that Sam, throughout the series, hasn't cared. He just tends to care more if he connects to the situation at hand. Which is the same for Dean.

I'm not arguing that Sam has always been cold or manipulative. He has his moments, of course. I'm just arguing that he's always been ready to justify extreme things in the moment, if it was for the greater good. Instances of this are simply that, instances. You can basically boil them down to episodes 1x21, 2x05, 3x15, 4x21-22, and, well, now. Because something went sideways in hell with Sam and he seems to have lost that thing that held him back from that place. He's always there now. He didn't even consider helping those people in 6x01. He was willing to use that baby as bait in 6x02. The only reason he seemed to worry about permanent damage with Aaron in 6x03 was because of Dean's reaction. And then 6x05. He used Dean. He risked Dean's life, risked Dean's humanity. He's done that before, of course, but never with a smirk on his face.

That's why now I call him callous. Because right now, Sam is callous.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I don't argue that Sam hasn't been ruthless in extreme situations, I'm just reacting against what I see as a tendency -- not in you particularly, but I've seen it floating around -- to retcon Sam as primarily a mask-wearer, a person who put on a show of compassion but didn't feel it. I might argue with the Simon Says case specifically -- Sam gave Andy his number, he was trying to reach out to him at the same time that he was wary of him, and he wasn't just randomly paranoid, he had seen Andy pushed to kill, and had seen him getting better and better at controlling his way out of situations. And Dean's position there wasn't anything as simple as compassionate humanity; for one thing, he was the one with the "Or we'll be back" warning, and for another, it's clear that he was trying to deny his own fears that Sam, and the others, would, in fact, go evil. Both Sam and Dean in that episode were a lot more about Sam than about Andy.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I disagree on pretty much every point. Sam's moral ambiguity has always been pretty specifically Dean-centric. Sam very much tries to do the Right Thing up until the point where that might put Dean in harm's way.

This has been true as far back as Faith. Sam was willing to turn a blind eye to what was going on until after Dean was healed. Dean's well-being also came first at the end of S1 where Sam had the opportunity to kill Azazel when he was possessing John, but didn't because Dean asked him not to.

As far as the other psychic children go, I think that was more Sam's fear of what he might be than a willingness to kill them. One of Sam's chief characteristics has always been a willingness to give people the chance to be good.

The exception to that might be Sam's demon blood drinking, but even that was predicated on Dean's death and subsequent resurrection. Sam was way off the rails there, but even then much of his motivation was revenge for Dean going to Hell and/or protecting Dean when he felt like Dean couldn't do it himself.

Dean is Sam's exception as much as Sam is Dean's, and while I did, in fact, ping to Sam's lie to Sammuel, the old family recipe is not something he could be sure would work. There were a lot of what ifs the plan hinged on, and I don't believe that Sam as Sam would have ever intentionally taken that sort of risk with Dean's safety.

[destial.livejournal.com]

Well, the fandom wouldn't be interesting if we all agreed on everything. I imagine we'll find out which way it leans next Friday, so I'll be interested in discussing it further with you once we have more facts.

I would like to say that, while Sam has, for much of the series, had a rather unhealthy, co-dependent relationship with Dean, not everything drastic he does necessarily revolves around that. A lot does, but Sam, like John, has an obsessive and selfish streak. Killing Lilith as revenge was an excuse for Sam. That's why he started, sure, but in the end, it became about him being the one to save the world, him taking control of his life, him being independent. He admits as much in season five.

The thing missing from Sam that would let him risk Dean in ways he doesn't do often - because he has before, just not as often and always because it's probably certain death anyway, true - is his dependency, I think. But that's not all that's wrong with Sam. I actually wondered if he lost his soul after last night, but reconsidering it, that's probably not possible. Souls in supernatural are the very essence of a person. A body with no soul is comatose, according to Ruby's season four condition. Demons have no bodies but they are made up of something that can be put into a body - what I believe to be the twisted remains of the soul. That's why they can be killed by having their bones burned, they're just spirits. If Sam had no soul, there'd be nothing in that body. That's not to say some of it hasn't been twisted, of course.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

I would like to say that, while Sam has, for much of the series, had a rather unhealthy, co-dependent relationship with Dean, not everything drastic he does necessarily revolves around that.

Hmmm. That might be our point of contention, because I think that it really does. Not to say that he isn't obsessive and selfish, but that he is obsessive and selfish about Dean. I saw his assertion of independence as more of a desire for Dean to see him as an adult than for actual independence, so it's still Dean-centric.

I actually have, like, essay-length thoughts on this, so I'll stop there. Either way I do think we'll have a more definitive answer after next weeks episode. I am very much excite for it to happen!!

[destial.livejournal.com]

I see what you're saying and I can definitely see how Sam's goal for independence could be seen like that. Of course half of it is that he wants Dean to see him as independent because it's impossible for Dean not to be involved with this. He's trying to become independent from Dean. But I recognize this strive for independence because it's a journey most younger siblings go through. Sam's is a little more extreme, of course, because he is obsessive and has a habit of doing things just a tad over the top. And because Dean was as much a parent as a brother in his actions half the time.

But at its core, I believe it was a journey of self discovery, and that had to be accomplished without Dean. You know, besides the demon blood and raising Lucifer thing, Sam's little journey was long over due. Sam and Dean need to learn how to be separate before they can be together in a healthy relationship.

... I do believe we have derailed our original debate. This has been fun, elizah. Usually my spn theories are met with the vague nods and rolled eyes of my somewhat uninterested parents. I'm glad for the opportunity to intelligently debate supernatural theories. I'm actually in the process of developing an essay on my season six Sam theories - involving but not limited to his overall emotional indifference, his lack of affection but sense of possession of Dean, and the possible/probable tainting of his soul that has led to his new found callousness. I do believe our conversation has given me new ideas to add.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

*flaps hands* I have a whole other tangent about Dean as a parent vs. sibling with regard to Sam's "memories" in Dark Side of the Moon and how, while Sam has always been Dean's little brother, Dean is sometimes Sam's brother, sometimes Sam's other parent, so the relationship vacillates wildly for Sam in a way that it simply doesn't for Dean. So Dean's family issues =/= Sam's family issues. Umm, I guess that's kind of random, but it's one of those dynamics of their relationship that I LOVE.

Yes! FWIW, I think Dean needed to do the same thing and in a lot of ways, their self-discovery stuff is at cross-purposes. For example, wrt John, Sam needed to realize where John was coming from and that he actually did understand and empathize and get over his anger, whereas Dean needed to recognize that he was justifiably angry with John and allow himself to feel and acknowledge that anger, so they essentially swapped places there.

I believe you're correct. Now I am just spewing sloppy random meta all over the place. I get a little excited sometimes... *g* Seriously, I spent HOURS talking about SPN theories with different people at Wincon and everyone had a different take and it was like the best thing EVER. Yay essaying!! I swear, I will someday write a (hopefully) cohesive essay of my Sam thoughts, because I find him endlessly fascinating. I'm trying to rein in my excitement for next week, but I am afraid I'm not succeeding all that well.

[destial.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm participating in the NaNo 30 Shot over at spn_30snapshots and it's actually about how Dean is so transitive with his role in the life of those around him. If you don't mind some self-pimping, the summary for the series is:

The thing about Dean is that he learned at a very age to fill the roles that go otherwise empty. He was Mary's husband when John didn't come home, telling her John loved her, that he'd be back. It'll be okay. He was John's wife when Mary died, watching over the home when John was gone, greeting him – comforting him – when he returned. He was mother to Sam when he had none, father to Sam when his was gone. He was son and friend and brother.

That part of the premise, I completely 100% believe. Dean just fills the role that's needed (of course, I finished the whole thing off with a splash of slash: So it only made sense that one day, when Sam was ready and realized there was another unfilled post in his life, that Dean would become lover too. Only, Dean didn't get that memo.).

I believe that's a big reason for Sam's selfishness and why he became so much like John. Sam, one could argue, was raised as more of an only child while Dean was not. To be fair to Dean, he did most of his own raising in that first year after Mary's death.

You know, until now, I had never really thought about that but Sam does have a lot of the mannerisms of an only child.

Oh, I fully agree that Dean needed his self discovery too. More, even, because he'd never been able to be his own person. That's why I think his relationship with Lisa and Ben right now is so important. It's his. It's not Sam's. It has nothing to do with Sam. Sam had Ruby, Dean has Lisa. True, one is better for one brother than the other. Lisa seems to have got Dean to lay off his alcohol problem - or maybe he did that on his own, whatever - while Ruby got Sam on his drink (do you realize that by having sex with Ruby and drinking her blood - often referenced to like a drug - Sam was essentially a crack whore for a while? it's a thought I like to giggle over). I see a lot of people complain about Dean's "sudden" 180 concerning John, but it started in season one and has been a long time building. It's very important towards Dean's character development too. (That's also the biggest difference between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer. Dean and Sam and John had their confrontation in the end of season one and Dean chose Sam over John. Michael chose God over Lucifer.)

I so wish I had gone to WinCon. I was sitting at home, seeing everyone posting and complaining to weimar27 about not being there. We internet cried together. I will be going to Salute to Supernatural Vancouver next August though and am so excited about that. I plan to go to the next WinCon, too, if I can.

Why isn't it next Friday yet? (And I do hope they don't continue this awful pattern of episode, episode, Castiel, episode, episode, Castiel. Although I do suppose he always has had a slow start to his seasons, hasn't he?)

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, I like that summary!! It's so true!

I think part of Sam's selfishness is that he's actually so secure in Dean's love that he doesn't have a problem doing his own thing. Sam knows that no matter what, Dean will be there (whereas Dean pretty much expects people to leave him). The one thing that is able to crack Sam is Dean doubting him. We've seen him multiple times being like, "Don't say that to me. Not you." Sam can handle most anything so long as he knows Dean is with him.

Hmmm. I would think Sam/Jess would be more comparable to Dean/Lisa. I'll have to think on that. I do agree that Dean's attitude about John have been changing since S1, just as Sam's has.

Wincon is actually the only con I've been to, but it is AMAAAAAAAAAZING!!! Everyone should go!!

Well, clearly we're being punished for something by having to wait so long!

[corbyinoz.livejournal.com]

Thank you both, destial and elizah_jane, so much, for a fascinating discussion. Thoroughly enjoyed it! (Am off to friend you so I don't miss any other things you might write!)

[erivar.livejournal.com]

The only reason i don't think this version of Sam is the real Sam even at his worst is for the simply reason that the real Sam would never ever be willing to kill Dean or let him be killed. Sam has had a lot of flaws and issues, and deeply controlled by his emotions, fears and guilt but not even at his darkest in the past seasons has he been willing to sacrifice Dean's life for any thing. Rather, he is willing to sacrifice other people for Dean. Like the above post, i too have always seen Sam's love for Dean to be psychotic and more dangerous because of the way Sam shows. Most people in the fandom think that Dean is the one who is overly co-dependent, but i've always thought Sam was the more co-dependent one because of the effects that co-dependency has on him.

Sam may have been all those things you say in the past seasons, but this Sam is definitely not Sam, Dean's brother. Choosing to go with Ruby over Dean no matter how much he thought it was the right choice still hurt and pained him. His reactions to using Dean as bait and willing to kill him was far from that Sam doped up on demon blood and rage.

So i say this Sam lacks what makes him Sam the person and brother and is a pod with all the wrong parts of Sam magnified. Like you said, the callous side of Sam without the other part that balanced him.

[destial.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about your underlying reasons for thinking as you do about this, but I don't think that in 6x05, Sam thought of it as sacrificing Dean. I believe he thought of it as just another gimmick to get inside and lie to the people they have to lie to, like when they'd pretend to be FBI or priests. Sam knew the best way to get to the alpha was to get an inside man. They got a man inside. No one died and no one was going to. Sam knew about that cure, just like he heard the shapeshifter in 6x02 mention "father."

For a moment, let's just agree to disagree on the "Is it Sam?" debate - you seem to strongly think no and I very strongly think yes; I doubt we'll convince each other so let's not even argue about it, we'll find out soon enough. I believe Sam thinks it's still him. He has this sense of entitlement towards Dean, the same one he's always had. That was the very first thing that made me think this had to be Sam - no one but John has ever had a sense of entitlement over Dean as strong as Sam's. So even if it isn't Sam, whatever it is thinks it is. There was also the biggest clue, of course: how he treated vamp!Dean. Dean was himself, to Sam. It never occurred to him that Dean might sneak out. When he realized that's just what Dean did, he was honestly surprised. Because that thing wasn't some mindless, soulless monster. That was Dean and Dean knew better, Dean had better control. Sam can predict everything Dean is going to do when "normal" so he thought he could predict everything vamp!Dean would do because that was still Dean. So what if he's a little different right now?

Just like how the Impala is often a metaphor for Dean and his situation in life, Sam often treats others based on how he sees himself. He was harsh towards Andy because he thought he should be put down, that he'd end up a murderer. He wanted so badly to give the rugaru a chance to go on and not become some mindless monster because he wanted to believe he wasn't going to become that if he chose not to. Over and over he does this and he did it again in 6x05. He's not a mindless monster, he's still Sam (again, this is what Sam is thinking about the situation, not me trying to usurp your pod theory). Because he's still Sam and not some monster - because he's even better at the job - then it doesn't matter if Dean is a vampire for a little while. They can turn him back and he's still Dean, he's not a monster. He can be a better hunter if he's like this. No life is being risked. No one is a monster.

[fanaddict.livejournal.com]

This is a facinating conversation and some time I might have time enough to really comment, but mostly I really wanted to say the below:

Sam can predict everything Dean is going to do when "normal" so he thought he could predict everything vamp!Dean would do because that was still Dean. So what if he's a little different right now?

I kind of disagree. I mean, I do think this is what Sam thought, but I think it shows a major problem with Sam that he thought it.

It's not that vamp!Dean is different from regular Dean and that Sam doesn't realize. Sam doesn't comprehend the close emotional bond Dean has with Lisa that would make him go to her to say good bye, even if it is a bad idea to go anywhere with the bloodlust in him. I think Sam's lack of ability to understand how much Dean cares for Ben&Lisa is a sign that Sam has lost his empathy/understanding of what love means. For whatever reason... (and I have a theory there but no time to write it up).

[kriari.livejournal.com]

I think that there is no way in any world where Sam is some version of himself (even crazy/evil/despairing/whatever) that he would let someone/something hurt Dean. Which goes back to that idea where Sam's love for Dean is a little bit psychotic. We've seen Sam in the past as willing to do A LOT of shady and morally ambiguous things in the name of keeping Dean safe. So Sam standing idly by while Dean gets vamped (even if he knew 100% for sure that it could be fixed) does not fit with Sam as he has always been WRT Dean.

This. I am also curious to see how it plays out. I'm pretty convinced that they're going to deus ex machina it in some way, but that remains to be seen. I agree that there's not Evil juice running in Sammy's veins. It's different, both more and less. Like you said, there's just nothing there and I think Jared's doing a good job of playing it as such - he's having the reactions he thinks he's supposed to be having when there are people around to see.

Am still convinced he sold his soul in some form or fashion.

Sam has NO moral qualms about it when it comes to Dean and that more than anything convinces me that his actions in 6x05 prove that he is lacking whatever it is that makes him Sam (his soul, most likely?).

It sounds like you might have similar thoughts. :)

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

I must admit, I feel very vindicated in my "That is not Sam!" initial reaction. :)

he's having the reactions he thinks he's supposed to be having when there are people around to see.

THIS!! I think he is completely unable to access his emotions, though he appears to have some idea of what they should be. But what gets me is that he isn't a sociopath, where he doesn't care. It's totally more of a void than anything else.

IDK, I go back and forth on whether or not he sold it, but I definitely think that Sam is currently without his soul, especially given the emphasis on souls so far this season.

I am pleased that we are thinking along similar lines!

[kriari.livejournal.com]

Me too :)

EXACTLY! I really, really, REALLY need to sit down and do my Sam meta for reals. I don't think he's sociopathic at all, actually. The fact that he not only recognizes but freely admits to Dean that things are better when he's around because he cares says as much.

Yeah. I waver on it privately, myself. I don't know if it's been taken from him or if it was something that he's freely divested himself of. I haven't yet been able to read whether he's sometimes surprised by his own reactions to things. That would tell me with certainty whether he knows his soul's gone or not.

Me too! I feel less crazy, I think.

My super-secret, super-hidden Wincesty shipheart says that things are better when Dean's around because he's so indelibly written into Sam's DNA that even soulless he can vicariously access his emotions through appropriating Dean's. Which is just fucking crazy talk, but *hands* IDK.

I also have clappy hands of GLEE for next week!

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

Write your Sam metas!! I still want to write mine on how Sam loves Dean (we decided that of the two, Sam is totally the one who would be all, "If I can't have you, nobody can!" Which is, granted, creepy. It still makes me happy somehow...)

Right? Like, IDK if he realizes how unconvincing his protestations are or if he does, but actually can't lie anymore convincingly. Or, yeah. Sam is still a puzzle.

Yes! I admit, I've had a couple of moments of :/ this season, but I am back on the yay train after last night.

Heeeeeeeeee! So, missyjack's secret hope is that Sam's soul is gone and what with him and Dean being ~soulmates~, Dean will give Sam part of his soul to get him back and HOMG, I don't think they'd do it, but it's not an unpleasant thought.

ME TOO ME TOO ME TOO!!! It's gonna be AWESOME!

[kriari.livejournal.com]

God. I post ridiculous fic like late tomorrow night, so I will have time for such things. I just might. You should totes write meta about how Sam loves Dean. Fandom needs it right now. (this is a completely plausible theory, jsyk. Dean would be the: "As long as you're happy, I'm happy" half of the equation. But then he'd be very obviously miserable.)

I like that Sam is still a puzzle. It makes me have thinky thoughts about him and I like to think thinky thoughts about Sam. IDK if the ambiguity is intended or not, but it's delicious.

I'm riding the Yay Train all the way to Yaytown, man.

Sera is the showrunner this year. I wouldn't completely rule it out. But I think you're right in saying they probably wouldn't do it.

*fistpumps*

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

\o/ I shall someday write this! It is an issue near and dear to my heart. Sam loves Dean creepily and for always!

I think it is intentional? Puzzle!Sam is puzzley. Also, considering the fact that we haven't seen anything from Sam's POV so far this season. Highly suspicious!

YAYTOWN COMING UP!! \o/ Oh, Show! <3

You make a fair point. It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility at least. *beams*

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

I am glad you are on the Yay train. I keep getting off at the stations and going to get myself a danish at the little stand next to the ticket counter and then not being sure if I can get back on the train but in the end I do.

I think soulless Sam is the best compromise between something that isn't just pasted on, but can be worked out in Sam's actual character and psychology, and purely damaged Sam, which seems like there would be a fine line between sufficient to explain his behavior and believably fixable. But I really, really don't want Sam to have sold his soul just to get out of hell. If there's a deal, I want Dean's safety, or the world's safety, or something beyond Sam's interests to have been involved.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

I suspect I have an abnormal amount of faith in Show. I wavered a bit at the beginning, but I took definite glee in 6x05, so I'm glad for that. Luckily the tickets for the Yay train never expire!

Yeah, that's why I'm not completely sold on Sam having sold his soul. If he did, I do think it was for some greater purpose (perhaps to get Adam out? Though they haven't mentioned Adam at all, so maybe not). But, yeah, I don't see him selling his soul (even to heaven) just to get out of Hell. That seems like sort of a pointless exercise to me, I guess?

[beadslut.livejournal.com]

It's very much the Gift of the Magi. Something that is the essential Sam-ness of Sam was lost/sold/traded/stolen so he could get back to Dean, only he now doesn't really remember what it is he wants from Dean, because that's the major part of what's lost to him.

I do wonder if it has something to do with the alphas, because of the timing, but I am riding the Yay train, not the also running on a parallel track I Can't Look train.

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Yes, the whole anvilly angels buying souls thing seems like a likely plot point regarding Sam's apparently missing one.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

They have been putting not too fine a point on the soul talk this season, so I agree that it lends credibility to the theory.

[kriari.livejournal.com]

It does indeed. Though we have been fooled in the past, I think perhaps this time they're not just funnin' with us.

[maraceles.livejournal.com]

I'm so conflicted! I definitely agree that Sam is ridiculously out of touch with his emotions right now, that there's some kind of void there. I'm still confused as to how and why--is he soulless or intact-but-severely damaged (i.e. the mind can do some really fucked-up shit for self-protection)? There are great arguments going either way, and I can buy either option.

I can't WAIT to see next week's episode. *g*

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

I think that is the soul thing because they have been putting emphasis on the importance of souls this season. Also, even in a non-shippy way, I think that if Sam were just fucked up, Dean would still be the exception to his fucked-up-ed-ness. I could be wrong, of course, but that is my theorizing.

HOMG I CAN'T EITHER!! This week is going to be torture!!

[missyjack.livejournal.com]

I WISH TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

Subscribe? I thought you were helping me write it?!?

Lol, your icon.

[kassidy62.livejournal.com]

Do you guys know of any meta or even mention of when in season 5, I Believe the Children Are Our Future, Dean hit Sam with the joy buzzer that had electrocuted and killed someone? He figured that once the boy knew the trick toys wouldn't hurt someone the toy would lose its power, but I was pretty startled that he'd chance Sam's life on it by hitting him with that thing when he'd just seen it cook up a big piece of meat.
Heck, somehow there's a point in this - the situation with Sam last week obviously isn't the same, but at the same time, it all seems to do with attitude as to who gets by with doing what.
Sam was coldly planning that Dean get turned in this last episode and that was chilling (I know it shook me up), but because it was sort of a jokey thing on Dean's part it was okay to take that leap just last season and use the buzzer? I remember that also bothered me but I don't remember anything being said about it, or any sort of condemnation in fandom posts afterward (that I saw). And I'm curious as to why, really.
Which, I don't even know what my point is:) Just a thought.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Missyjack's reply is pretty much what I was thinking. They have taken calculated risks as part of a hunt before, though I do think the buzzer thing was played up for laughs. But, also, that was also at a point in the show where Dean is pretty full of barely-concealed resentment toward Sam. IDK of any meta on it, but I think it is different from Sam letting Dean get vamped in that it was more of a spur-of-the-moment dick move than a calculated thing.

[kassidy62.livejournal.com]

It just didn't work for me, at all. Calculated risk is a necessary thing in their business, but careless unnecessary risk is something else entirely. That it was spur of the moment kind of made it worse (for me), because that's taking Sam's safety very lightly. And the fact that it was indisputably Dean instead of how we're thinking re: Sam, in that it's just not him, also makes it worse. But I think it was played for a laugh, though it struck so wrong for me. I still very much disliked it, it felt OOC for Dean that he'd take something with the potential for Sam's death so carelessly. I just felt like they did Dean's characterization wrong for the sake of the laugh. I wasn't laughing!
I'll stop now;) Really.

[errant-jane.livejournal.com]

Naw, I get what you're saying. There have been a few moments like that for me. In S4 for example, where Sam has the Impala wired for an ipod. I'm sorry, you cannot convince me that Sam took time out of his suicidal self-destructive quest for revenge to make sure he could play his ipod in the Impala. And that was another bit that was, I think, thrown in for laughs. /o\ (I have since decided that Ruby did it as an overture toward Sam...)

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

Heck, somehow there's a point in this - the situation with Sam last week obviously isn't the same, but at the same time, it all seems to do with attitude as to who gets by with doing what.

That's the crux of it, I think. Dean took a rather large, completely unnecessary chance with Sam's life--even if he was 95% sure that his hypothesis was right, and even as much as he was in the "You're not my brother" stage at that point, I can't buy that he'd risk Sam's life that cheaply. I can't put it at all in the category of Sam letting Dean get vamped--Sam very deliberately put Dean in harm's way, knowing full well that this could kill him or turn him into a full-fledged vamp whom Caleb or Sam would then have to kill. It was premeditated, and it's not something he could have done if he was capable of loving his brother at all (which is hopefully a temporary condition, though that remains to be seen). Dean's actions in IBtCAOF were spur of the moment, and there was no actual intent to harm Sam. But he still made a guess based on very little information, and knowingly chose to put Sam's life at risk, for almost no payoff: the best case scenario, with the information he had at the time, was that Sam would make a particularly good bitchface, while the worst case scenario was that Sam would die.

I suspect, had the roles been reversed, whether in that episode or at any time during the run of the series, the outcry could have been heard from space, and it's definitely interesting that Dean casually and pointlessly endangering Sam's life for a laugh wasn't even a blip on the fannish radar (not bagging on Dean, here, to be clear--my problem is Doylist, not Watsonian. I think it was a horribly OOC action that Dean at his absolute lowest point, even when he'd convinced himself he didn't love Sam anymore and didn't want anything to do with him, would never have considered).

[pinkphoenix1985.livejournal.com]

very interesting theory and I have to agree with you. The thing is that I feel that I can't get too excited about this Sam because I think that somehow the writers are going to mess it up which will seriously SUCK!

[jeeronie.livejournal.com]

Hi, here via missyjack.

I'm sorry if this has been said, I haven't the time to read all (surely fascinating) comments here but I think everyone seems to be missing an important point about Sam turning Dean into a vampire: the fact there was a cure wasn't really the point.
The point is Sam would never turn Dean into something he loathes, risking Dean hurting others and all the while letting Dean think that his only option was death.
Cure or no cure, Sam wouldn't do that to Dean even if Dean only believed it hopeless for a little while. IMO.

All else, I agree. And I do hope Sam is at least 5000 miles away from this creature we are seeing because if they try to justify that that is Sam-with-a-few-issues I'm gonna be >:(

Hi

[rochey-1.livejournal.com]

Hi, can anyone weigh in here or do you have to know them?

I'm gonna weigh in here, and if you don't like it, or think i was rude for assuming, that i could comment on your journal, well then delete my comment, and we'll never speak of this again. please don't delete me <3

I love the the whole 'breaking down Sam psychologically', I've never been more interested in his character as i am at the moment. I'm also totally in Sammy research mode at the moment.

I love what you said about Sam's love for his brother being Psychotic. It's really interesting. I tend to compartmentalise Sam and Dean. In fan-fic they are a couple to me and it's easier to understand Sam's 'fake' thoughts, but in the show it's 'Non Gay Soulmates' and it's harder to get a read on Sam because most of the time he's the mystery and Dean's the audience.

It's really that easy though to put the wincest glasses on them in canon, Ya know with the Whole 'soulmates' thing, and the un-healthy relationship that goes far beyond co-dependence.

The way i see it, is that i think you're right. Sam def psychotically loves his brother. Dean's been the parent, brother, friend, etc. He's given Sam everything that he could, including his own happiness Which has made Sam inherently selfish, but i also think that fit's into the whole 'made for Lucifer and Michael role' as well.

Sam has essentially been programed from a baby with Gimme, Gimme attitude, and a sense of entitlement. Dean has flaws too but i'm talking about Sam's character at the mo.

Sam has the 'only child syndrome' even though he wasn't. He was the most precious to Dean and John and he knows it at his core. Multiply those flaws, with the darkness in him, and it becomes skewed.

Sam knows Dean loves him, but he also knows that Dean wants to control him, in a protective way. Sam is not down with that because his father tried the same and he rebelled. In the earlier season's i would agree with "Dean , i wanna be independent" but the more twisted up in each other they have become, i don't see that anymore.

The more Sam taps into his darkness, the more it becomes about CONTROL and the need to control Dean. I suppose at this point it could slip into wincest territory.

When Sam choked Dean on the floor at the end of season 4 (ow, my heart hurts) I didn't see that scene as so much 'i wanna kill you' more like 'i wanna display my dominance over you, i'm gonna ice Lilith, we'll fix this, and then you'll fall into line'

It's not Dean's nature to fall into line, so they consistently clash untill they tear each other apart. It's that delicious push and pull.

It's also very telling how much Sam needs a Dean substitute in his life, if he can't have Dean. His " Ruby said what you would of said" in Season 4 and his "grandpa Creepy is alot like you" in this season. hmm, me senses a complex there!!!

As for their love, i see it in different ways. When Sam Dies, Dean want's to kill himself or sell his soul to get Sam again. He still remains Dean just a lot more broken than usual.

I suppose this is where psychotic comes into it. When Dean is in danger or dead. Sam totally destroys himself, self destructs on a massive scale, and becomes someone totally unrecognisable. He gives into everything he hates(his darkness, becoming john) The worse parts of himself manifest, and the only thing that brings him back to himself is having Dean again.(wow, mystery spot, Travis Bickle in a skirt, terminator Sam everybody, season 4, now)

Speaking of Mystery Spot, did anyone notice that Dean brings chaos to Sam's life, in a good way. He's more laid back around him. Then, Dean's dead and HEY... I'ts OCD Sammy(i figure he has no control over the situation, but he can damn well control the little things, and aw... so sweet with the Dean's dinner thing <3 )

So yeah... we see Dean's overwhelming Love for Sam when he's around him, But we see Sam's overwhelming love for his brother when he's not around. That's when it gets psychotic, well for me it does. Dean doesn't really cross that moral line but when it comes to Dean, Sam dances all over it. It really is "we keep each other human" aw, boys so sweet with the unicorns and the moonbeams LMFAO

still me

[rochey-1.livejournal.com]

I think "We keep each other human" has never been more important this season. Sam needs Dean to be himself, so i know this is just temporay with him at the mo. It's the hypothetical, what happens if Sam couldn't get Dean, well... I think he'd nuke the planet and take on God, just a theory.

As for Sam now. He SCREAMS Sociopath to me, but obviously in a supernatural way. Fractured soul/psyche me thinks. He has no empathy, so no guilt or remorse, especially with his brother. He's a beat behind with his emotions, which tells me, he's mimicking what he thinks people want from him. it's like he has to think before he gives a fake answer or emotion which should be second nature to OUR Sam. Even Sam at his worst in season 4 was brimming with emotion.

So yeah... this Sam has no guilt or remorse, and you can bet when he doesn't have to keep up the facade, he's Robo Sam. He know's Dean inside out, so he's ahead of his brother. He knows what Dean expects from him, so he's faking it, but alas with all Sociopaths, cracks start to show, just Like that shocking vampire scene we witnessed.

In this form, i think he's going by his baser instincts. So... it's Sex, Hunt, Brother. I really think that a part of souless sam wants his brother with him again, but it's all skewed. he wants Dean, but he doesn't mind using Dean. He's dissasociating but in a sociopathic way.

As for Lisa and Ben, that relationship won't work in the long run. they'll be second best, not really the basis for a relationship. Sam's Back and within 2 episodes, Dean's with him again. He can only have one of his options and Lisa knows that. i think that's why she told him to go, because she knows he'll end up leaving eventually anyway. this way she has control over the situation. As for the either/or. That won't work either. For all Lisa's either/or she'll eventually want total commitment/marriage/family. As long as Sam's around she won't get that, so all she'll get are wasted years and a messed up son. Dean went to her because of Sam's dying wish, and Sam only asked him because of that. If Sam was ok, it never would of been brought up. Sam knows that, Dean knows that, and Lisa def knows that.

As for This Sam, i'm sure this isn't 100% new and improved. the core of the show is built on Sam and Dean's relationship. Mess with that, Bye Bye show.

Anyone catch the hug in the first episode between them, and Sam's 'spider meet the fly expression' That tells me that he was genuinely happy, but it's sick and twisted because his emotions are skewed.

As for the smirk in the vamp episode. I really tried to get inside Sam's head here. I feel that it wasn't just... get Dean into the vamp nest. i dunno... i think he liked what he was seeing, he was excited. sick sammy... sick.

It was either focused on Dean, or the blood exchange itself. i'm not sure. Was this sammy 'deja vu' Demon blood or was it 'now you know what it's like to be a monster'. Can't work it out. I don't know about you. but that smile screamed horny sammy (bad wincest... Bad wincest *is ashamed* )

So with the way he is at the moment, his sense of entitlement towards Dean becomes alot more skewed because of the 'dissasociating Socio' stuff. I'm not putting the wincest glasses on here folks. I think Sam doesn't want Dean with Lisa and Ben. What he did with Dean, in my opinion was systematic.

Episode 1: appeal to Dean's character and Sammy sweet talk him into complying (shit, didn't work)

Episode 2: Trick him into a hunt, I can do it but i'll pretend i need him. (yay me, but he's still attached)

Episode 3: Lie, Lie, Lie (shit.. even i know i suuuuck at lying)

Episode 4: Be Sammy (well, i was totally fooled)

Episode 5: Let him get turned so he'll be like me/spy, maybe i know he'll fuck up his relationship, maybe i don't, but 'bonus'(shit he's on to me *releases Sammy puppy dog eyes of doom* )

episode 6: I'll prob suuuuuck at lying some more.

still me

[rochey-1.livejournal.com]

On a serious note though, When Sam know's that Dean's dipping into the world that doesn't revolve around Sam, he doesn't seem to like it. his Lisa and Ben sympathy ring insincere, seriously, look at his face. if he could piss on Dean he would.

As for the hooker thing, maybe socio Sam knows he can't make a meaningful connection with a woman, so hooker sex. or on a more disturbing note, maybe he just can't be arsed.

So i hope you enjoy reading and i apologise for how long it is. i'm just really excited, and full of ideas, speculation etc. This will prob be all shot to shit eventually, but i'm sticking to my guns. Thank you xxxx